noah kagan on growing an audience with timestamps YoutubeScribe.com

[0:04] Hey guys and girls, so this is the bonus episode
of my course.
[0:08] It's about audience building because I don't
think I'm super good at it.
[0:12] And here's the guy who is awesome at audience
building, he have built quite a few audiences.
[0:18] I'm sure you all know about it, about him.
[0:20] It's The Noah Kagan, he's the founder of AppSumo,
Sumo.com, KingSumo, and like pretty much every
[0:28] domain name in the world that has
the word "sumo" in it.
[0:31] So let's not waste time and start with some
numbers because I'm sure people want to
[0:37] know, like, the size of your audience.
[0:40] Like, can you tell us about the email list that
you have at AppSumo, AppSumo.com, your
[0:45] own email list at OKDdork?
[0:49] What's the size of your YouTube following,
what's the size of your podcast, like, let's
[0:54] start from some numbers.
[0:55] One thing I... Hello everybody, hey Tim,
good to see you. Thank you for having me!
[0:59] Just Noah, not The Noah Kagan or anything like that.
[1:03] One thing I just want to highlight.
[1:05] A lot of times when I hear guys that have more
money than me, or girls, or people have bigger
[1:09] houses or nicer cars...
[1:12] I think you always have to know what's going on
underneath and you also have to understand
[1:15] what your own objectives are.
[1:17] Because a lot of people might say, "Man, if I
had a, you know, large mailing list, or if I had
[1:21] this much money, or if I had more hair
(which I don't), everything would be great."
[1:26] Or, you know a lot of... You know, I could give
you every email that's on my our mailing list
[1:30] but they probably wouldn't
do anything.
[1:32] They probably wouldn't open your email,
they probably won't respond to you.
[1:34] So what I like to... I really encourage everyone:
don't worry about how big the email list is worry
[1:38] about the quality.
[1:39] So worry about how many people stray up like you... and I'll give you a good example.
[1:43] How many people stray up if you said "Hey,
I need your help I'm working on this project
[1:47] can you donate some money or can you contribute?"
[1:49] How many people in your audience would give a shit?
[1:52] That's the number that matters more.
[1:54] Cause I... You know I talked to a guy yesterday
who had 30 thousand people on his mailing list
[1:58] which is... it's a lot of people!
[2:00] Imagine thirty thousand people in a stadium, that's a... that's a soccer stadium.
[2:04] Or you... or you know, football stadium, that's it...
[2:07] Or Singapore, actually...
[2:08] Close enough.
[2:10] But, you know, his open rate's for 15% which is shit.
[2:13] That means that no one gives a crap about
what he's saying.
[2:15] And we can talk about strategies around that too.
[2:17] The second thing is like I did a charity thing
just as an example.
[2:21] And, you know, I was able to raise $30,000
from very small amounts because, you know,
[2:27] I've spent 15 years giving out free content to people.
[2:31] And so when I finally said "Hey, I'm doing charity. Do you guys want to contribute?"
[2:34] it was easy for me to actually make that effective.
[2:36] So just again coming back, I just want to
say we'll talk about some of the stats cuz
[2:39] it is interesting.
[2:41] But what I've gotten as I'm getting older now,Tim, I'm 36,
[2:44] it's less about the vanity numbers and more about
the actual... It's like when people talk about revenue
[2:48] you should ask what profit is.
[2:50] And when people talk about their email list you
should say what's your, like, revenue per opens
[2:53] or what's your open rate or something like that.
[2:55] More than actually just the size of it.
[2:57] So that is a little pushback for people think... uhm
just think about the quality, work out one by one.
[3:01] I think in marketing people miss that.
[3:04] You are like, how many people... I'm like won't
you just to go one at a time and get every single
[3:07] person who watches your videos, respond to their comment.
[3:10] Or every person who's joined your mailing
list - email them.
[3:12] Or like with KingSumo.com, anyone who buys - we
personally email, everyone who sets up a giveaway
[3:16] we personally message them.
[3:18] Agree 100%!
[3:19] The sizes were there, I mean AppSumo, I think is like almost a million subscribers...
[3:24] OKDork is a hundred thousand, plus Sumo.com is a few hundred thousand people using it...
[3:29] So over... you know... we've been doing this
business almost 10 years and I've been doing
[3:33] my personal blog... 15 years.
[3:34] Yeah, so what about your personal numbers?
[3:37] The YouTube channel I think you have...
how many... 35,000 subscribers or?..
[3:42] Yeah, there's around 30... you know what's
funny - I don't really pay attention to that, Tim,
[3:45] but there's 34,312, I mean I guess.
[3:49] I mean, you know what's interesting with
YouTube subscribers? Same thing, man.
[3:53] I see these guys... I've seen two guys recently: one has
100,000 subscribers and one has a million subscribers.
[3:58] But then sometimes I wonder why... when they
put out a video, only 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000
[4:04] people watching it?
[4:06] People aren't looking forward to their their emails,
or their videos, or their articles whatever.
[4:10] So I think it's really... trying to figure out like, am I creating food or beverages or content or video or
[4:16] podcast that people are looking forward to consuming.
[4:18] Yeah, this is actually one of the last questions in
the interview about the kind of content that you
[4:24] should put out.
[4:25] But let's not force it there.
[4:28] So there's email list, there is YouTube following,
there's also following on medium.com.
[4:35] I started, like, posting some articles there
because you can reach an audience.
[4:38] So, like, what is... what do you think
what's the difference?
[4:41] Should people try to be present on different platforms
that allow you to have following or should you focus on
[4:47] just one medium or just like email list which is classic.
[4:50] What are your thoughts on this?
[4:51] So, I I've done a bunch and I've experimented
I think there's two things you do.
[4:55] And this is what I've... This was in my experience,
I can't tell what were for everyone.
[4:58] Number one: email list. Number one!
[5:00] Number two: find the medium that works for you.
[5:04] So what does that mean?
[5:05] You might be great on audio so do podcast, you might be great in in professional stuff - do LinkedIn you might
[5:11] find that your... Quora is your medium.
[5:14] But I never build my house on someone else's property, ever.
[5:18] Because Facebook changes an algorithm.
[5:20] Like, I talked to this guy, he said "Oh yeah, Facebook... I get less traffic."
[5:23] I'm like, "Yeah of course it's their traffic you're getting it for free they get over the
[5:26] f*ck they want with it."
[5:28] I don't know if I could swear, is that okay if I swear?
[5:30] Yeah! Okay, well I think it's okay.
[5:32] So I'd say experiment with different mediums
and then find the medium that you're actually
[5:37] getting people to respond to you and then that's where you find people.
[5:40] But then you push them to your email list.
Why email list?
[5:44] Even with Gmail's changes or all the, you know,
changes of an Inbox it's still the only medium
[5:48] that I've ever found that I can directly control communicating with a lot of people.
[5:52] Even with LinkedIn, I have 30,000 followers,
when I post something, sometimes they see it,
[5:58] sometimes they don't.
[5:58] YouTube video, I have all these followers, sometimes
I get 1,000 views, sometimes I get 10,000.
[6:02] With my email list I get 20 to 30% opens every single time guaranteed.
[6:07] And so it's the only medium that if you ever
want to make sure that you don't go to business,
[6:11] I would build up and then use these other channels.
[6:14] This is where people find out about you.
[6:16] So you're using your YouTube channel, your podcast,
your following on LinkedIn to, like, reach people to
[6:26] spread awareness about what you do, about
yourself, about your brand's your businesses.
[6:30] And then you... at the end you try to funnel them in
some email list of yours like if it's a business email
[6:37] list or personal email list that would be the most relevant to them, okay.
[6:41] I mean, so figure out the channel that works for you.
[6:43] So for example, I tried Quora for all of the year maybe
it was nine months and it taught me all these views.
[6:48] But I can never get people, like, to leave, to follow me anywhere else.
[6:52] And think about this, you're like "wow, you've all
this follow," but if I ever say like I want to promote
[6:55] something, Quora's god can change the rules on me.
[6:59] The same with a Facebook page.
[7:00] So for me it's "figure out your channel."
[7:02] So for me the channels that I found work really
effectively now: I do LinkedIn because I actually
[7:06] find it helps me get new exposure, and then
YouTube because the size of the audience.
[7:10] So those are the two channels I'm looking to find
new people and then push them into event so I can
[7:15] communicate them directly with my emails.
[7:18] Yeah I think that's... that makes a ton of sense.
[7:21] Okay, let's talk about converting people to your email list.
[7:25] So you have Sumo.com which is, like, a suit of tools for converting people.
[7:32] But I see a problem with list building, with all those
"hello" bars, pop-up slide-ins, like, and whatever
[7:42] that usually people would use some kind of lead
magnet some kind of PDF or some freebie that
[7:48] would motivate people to sign up to their email list.
[7:51] And then, which is quite obvious, when people get this
freebie they're kind of no longer interested to receive any
[7:56] subsequent emails and so they just unsubscribe.
[8:00] So what do you think about this?
[8:02] I think you're right and the two things that I'm doing
and our company is doing more in 2018 and beyond.
[8:09] Number one is we're actually asking for emails less and I know that sounds backwards...
[8:14] it's still... this point is to still ask for email.
[8:16] You know, a conversion on a website for purchasing is one to two percent, and so you have 99 percent
[8:21] not doing anything.
[8:22] So you have to ask for an email, you have to get that other 10% and then you could build relationships.
[8:27] But I've actually toned down, if you go to OKDork,
I'm much less aggressive and how often I do pop-ups
[8:32] or how often I'm doing scroll box, and this, and this, and this.
[8:34] Because you want to find people who want to hear from you.
[8:37] You got to say "Hey, do you wanna hear from me?"
[8:38] But people... you know, I think two years ago I was super aggressive on it.
[8:41] So I would actually encourage people to tone it down, number one.
[8:44] People still need to ask for it 'cause it's critical.
[8:46] The second thing... the second thing I've been
doing is how do you create tool or software
[8:52] that people want to give you an email address for.
[8:54] Instead of just just, like, "Hey, I'm gonna
give you a sh*tty PDF," you know.
[9:00] Or you know, I think in some companies it's a little
dangerous to get in the discount train which is like
[9:05] "Hey, here's a discount" or "Here's something that..,"
so how could you give them a tool where they're like
[9:09] "Oh cool, I want to use this. I actually want it."
[9:13] And I think people aren't investing enough in it right now.
[9:15] And so it's like, you know, KingSumo is a free
thing for us, and people sign up, give us an email,
[9:19] and then we can actually communicate with them.
[9:21] But it's a free software that helps build an email list.
[9:24] Okay, the way I found around this issue is that back
on my personal blog I was offering people to sign up
[9:31] for five five-email free course.
[9:35] So basically they weren't downloading any
PDF but I was sending them like one email
[9:40] every, like, two or three days and this got
them to a habit of receiving my emails.
[9:46] So yeah this work as well.
[9:47] But I'm totally with you on toning down the
aggressiveness that makes a lot of sense,
[9:52] because I think a lot of people now even hate it and they
would be vocal on Twitter, on Facebook, on Reddit.
[9:58] Can I recommend two other things?
[10:01] Yeah, sure.
[10:02] I'll recommend to other strategies.
[10:03] So one thing that I do with KingSumo, it's one of our
newer products for giveaway software, is anyone who
[10:10] signs up, I say "Hey, you know, use KingSumo."
[10:13] It... first that the email says, and everyone
can try it, you'll find out, it says
[10:17] "Why did you sign up and when you're gonna..."
"How did you hear about KingSumo?" - number one.
[10:22] And number two: "When are you going to run
your giveaway?"
[10:24] And it's an autoresponder.
[10:26] So everybody, a lot of people, reply - about 50%
reply - and I email every single person back.
[10:31] So that's the thing I would recommend.
[10:32] Instead of saying "I'll give you a shitty PDF" why don't
you say "Hey, give me your email and I'll personally
[10:37] reply to you?"
[10:39] It'll shit the pants, and somebody like "No, there's no way Tim's gonna do it!"
[10:42] And I know you're like, "Well that's a lot of work."
[10:44] I'm like, yeah it's a lot of work to build an audience.
[10:46] I think I know what people will gonna say at this point:
"Yeah, it's Noah, everyone wants to get the response
[10:51] from Noah. But I'm just starting out my
blog is new so it won't work for me."
[10:55] No, that's actually even more important for you 'cause
I don't really have as much time on like OKDork.
[10:59] I don't email people, every single person anymore.
[11:01] But for the first thousands of people I emailed every single one.
[11:05] "Hey, when you join I'm gonna personally..."
like, whatever people are specializing in.
[11:08] If I specialize in real estate, if I specialize in sales, if I specialize in account management and whatever it is...
[11:14] Tell them what you're gonna do like, "Hey..."   - if
you're a designer - "Hey, I will give you a free logo,
[11:17] or I'll give you a free site review, I'll give you four things to do with your site."
[11:20] The second thing that most people should do...
Here's another idea, I'm actually doing this one
[11:26] 'cause everyone... If things get saturated... all right,
it's like when it's a it's a good deal or when there's a
[11:32] shorter line in the supermarket, everyone
fills that line up we all know that.
[11:35] So one day, actually I literally thought of it today, it'll probably help me grow my email list but a few years
[11:42] ago I started doing Summerofmarketing.com
and, you know, 1k.com and Traffic..
[11:47] so it was actually like, a legit course.
[11:51] You know, I put a lot of time and money into, it had really helped grow my email list.
[11:54] One thing I'm gonna start doing is the training
programs, so actually like live training programs.
[12:00] It wasn't... I guess it wasn't really thought to be
an opt-in I just thought it'd be a good way to meet
[12:03] cool people.
[12:04] So, whatever vertically in like, let's take SEO,
you could say "I'm training junior SEO marketers
[12:10] so JuniorSEOmarketingtraining.com.
[12:12] And they opt in, and then maybe for your first
program you do live video training, like live lessons
[12:17] and you record that and that actually
becomes a training of people.
[12:22] So I think it really is a potential new way of an opt-in.
[12:25] Okay, I'll see you do it first then think about it too.
[12:29] But actually I have to give you credit because this
course that I'm building right now it was inspired
[12:35] by your course, it's The Email1k, The Summer
of Marketing, The Traffic One M, I believe.
[12:42] And I think that there's also a talk on v-mail I am
going to put all the links that we mentioned in
[12:48] the description of the video, below the video.
[12:50] There's also a video from MicroConf where, I
think the name is David Kadavy talks about this
[12:57] It's David's idea...
[12:58] He talks about the strategy it's pretty cool so, yeah.
[13:03] I'll leave a link below so that everyone could benefit from it.
[13:07] And you mentioned that...
[13:09] Sorry, David is designed for Hackers.com here's the original one who I copied.
[13:14] Yeah, everyone is copying each other.
[13:17] Well, I think the point is that everything is a copy, you just have to iterate it.
[13:21] So David did it and then I added more viral component.
[13:24] So if you go share it, I had like bonus things,
like a Facebook group, but you have to share
[13:28] to get in the group.
[13:29] Yeah-yeah I'm doing it all video, for example.
So yeah, everything changes.
[13:34] You mentioned giveaways, so let's talk
about giveaways and they... I think that
[13:39] with converting people to your email list with
giveaways, the problem that they sign up for
[13:44] freebie only gets even bigger.
[13:46] So again what are your thoughts about this
and since you have a KingSumo.com which is
[13:51] a giveaway platform - how do you make sure that
people get results and how do you make sure that
[13:57] people stay and pay you for your software?
[14:00] Yeah, so giveaways... No one should ever do a giveaway more than once a quarter, in my opinion.
[14:06] And I think giveaways suck for the most part
because people are like "What are you giving
[14:10] away for free? Cool, I want that, fuck you." right?
[14:12] Like, how many times have you been to an event?
You ever been to, like, a conference and they give out
[14:15] free food or something and you don't even
know who's sponsoring or who's doing it.
[14:19] So what I suggest is that you give away a good
product, it doesn't have to be expensive, that's
[14:24] targeted to your audience.
[14:25] So, for example, like let's say Ahrefs, I would
give away a book around marketing or something.
[14:31] A physical book, maybe it's all of Seth Godin books.
[14:33] Because your audience is targeted, you know,
a random person wouldn't really be that interested.
[14:39] And I wouldn't do it too regularly that's... just I don't
think it's as effective if you do that all the time.
[14:43] Because only, you know... giveaways is one
form of marketing you have to do.
[14:47] There's ads, there's content, there's press - all
these different things, SEO... giveaways is just
[14:53] one slice of the pie.
[14:54] And so do it once  quarter.
[14:56] The other thing is, I make sure people opt-in and
then I try to email them really quickly afterwards
[15:00] to be like, "Hey, here's what we're about if you're
not interested let us know or like unsubscribe."
[15:05] Because you want to get them to actually be engaged with what your business is as quickly as possible.
[15:09] One other thing that I like to do is that we remove anyone from our email list that doesn't click or open
[15:14] it three months.
[15:16] So we call... like, we get rid of people very quickly
it's one it saves your your email service provider bill.
[15:23] probably cuts it down by a half.
[15:24] But as well... hope it helps your open rates and
your deliverability and really it makes it more
[15:29] effective when you send.
[15:29] So remove people who aren't signing and that's good
for you... who joined giveaways and people who don't.
[15:33] What I found data-wise is that from a giveaway
around 40% to 50% of people who join your giveaway,
[15:38] that confirm their email, will actually end up
being a good customer.
[15:42] That's what we found for AppSumo when
we were running a lot of giveaways with us.
[15:47] One other thing that I just thought about is that you
shouldn't run your giveaway to like everyone in your
[15:54] audience but you can actually have segments.
[15:56] For example, here at Ahrefs I thought that we have
some customers, some super-loyal people, who were
[16:02] with us, like, for five years.
[16:04] So we could launch a giveaway exclusively to them.
[16:07] Like, "Hey guys, you're our long-term customers this
is why for you we're giving this opportunity to get
[16:13] all of Seth Godin books, like, share this app, just
share this link with your friends..." or something.
[16:19] So yeah, I thought that it doesn't have to be your full
audience but you can segment it by different criteria
[16:26] and then launch different giveaways to these people.
[16:28] So do you think it makes sense?
[16:31] I love that, I mean two other things I would recommend is:
[16:33] 1. I like giveaways where everyone wins.
[16:37] I like a giveaway where, you know, if it's an Ahrefs'
giveaway, it's like, "Hey, we'll give away these books."
[16:41] And everyone who enters and even they don't win, it's,
like, maybe it's that course for free, maybe it's a training
[16:46] for free maybe it's a discount if your people are comfortable with that
[16:49] But something where everyone who joins
gets a benefit out of it.
[16:53] The other thing that we're working towards is that... and this is I think a recommendation...
[16:57] What is the point of a giveaway?
[16:59] Like, the point of giveaway is not for me to just give
away something for free because I'm a nice guy.
[17:04] I think I'm mostly nice.
[17:05] But I do a giveaway because I'm hoping... I'm
hoping people will join the giveaway and then
[17:09] tell their friends to join because they get more... a better chance of winning.
[17:12] So the whole point of a giveaway is to get new customers.
[17:15] And so what we're moving towards with KingSumo
is how do we use the same mechanisms of customer
[17:20] referral to help people grow their businesses.
[17:24] Because you guys have all these customers
at Ahrefs and everyone listening or watching.
[17:27] Has customers and they have an email list
hopefully they have a few even if it's small.
[17:31] But those people have your other customers for you.
[17:34] So how do we create more tools that help people encourage that?
[17:38] And even if people don't use KingSumo, think
about that, like you already have all these
[17:40] customers, just you work with them!
[17:42] Don't try to always... just go outside and
figure out new ideas.
[17:45] Makes a lot of sense.
[17:47] Okay, we're getting from converting people into
your email list or whatever medium you're using
[17:54] to kind of keeping them engaged, building
that loyalty and trust so that people would
[17:59] actually open your emails.
[18:00] This is what you've mentioned, you may have
a hundred thousand emails on your email list
[18:05] but when you send them an email it would
be, like, 5% open rate.
[18:08] So what do you do from day one?
[18:10] So, from day one when people... when a
person has signed up to your email list,
[18:14] how do you make sure that this person will
stay with you?
[18:18] All right, a few things... I'll just give you tactics,
I'll just give people things they should do.
[18:22] #1: Make your post subscribe page really cool.
[18:26] So after I give you my email and you redirect me
to that post subscribe page, make it something
[18:30] that's a benefit for me.
[18:31] Like, "Hey, you're already here, join my YouTube show."
[18:34] "Hey, you're already here, go read this best article."
[18:36] So that's one thing most people don't do.
[18:37] #2: Make a welcome message that's either engaging
so that they want to reply to it, or something that's
[18:44] very simple like, "Hey, here's the..." like...
[18:46] What I do, my goal is to get people to watch me on YouTube.
[18:49] So my welcome email is "Go subscribe to me on YouTube. Hhere are the three best videos I've ever done.
[18:54] I love you, welcome for.. welcome for coming to OKDork!"
[18:57] So that's what I do, so I neither say "Engage them
or show them your best thing right away" because
[19:01] they're most interested the moment they join.
[19:03] The second thing you have to do is you
 have to have an autoresponder.
[19:06] And what is an autoresponder I mean it
means that it works in every email provider.
[19:10] So in your autoresponder, what I do is I take
my best content or my best things and I have it
[19:16] automatically sent.
[19:19] So with OKDork when someone joins my mailing
list... and this is true for all of our companies...
[19:23] different emails for each company,
[19:25] but when you join OKDork, my first email is YouTube,
my second one is to follow my podcast, my third one,
[19:32] I don't remember right now, my fourth one
is, like, go check me out on LinkedIn.
[19:35] So, it's automatic every three days and
the sooner you do it the better.
[19:38] Because basically what happens with email open
rates is first days the highest 50%, second day is
[19:43] 40%, then 30% and then it flatlines 30-20%.
[19:47] So what you want to do is in the first, probably,
seven days, seven to ten days have three emails
[19:51] or you can figure it out just, you know, do as
much as you feel comfortable with, that is like
[19:55] showing your best stuff.
[19:57] Think about it it's like if they come to a restaurant:
would you give me your shittiest dishes or are you
[20:01] giving your best?
[20:02] And the best thing about an autoresponder is that
when they come, every time they come they get
[20:05] the same best dish.
[20:07] So that's that's the... you have to do that.
[20:09] Now, once you guys got that unlock and if people are like, "No I don't know what to put for my autoresponder,"
[20:14] here's the easiest way of figuring that out.
[20:15] Look through every email you've ever sent, pick
the three highest open rates you've ever had,
[20:20] and then make those your autoresponder. Easy!
[20:24] And it works for every type of business: eCommerce, content business, agency business, SAS business,
[20:29] they all should have autoresponders.
[20:31] What people need to do, so the second things that I would say...
[20:33] #1: Your emails should be something you're excited to send.
[20:38] A lot of people send emails, they're like, "Oh yeah,
I'm supposed to send emails," and they send it.
[20:40] I'm like, "Are you excited about that?"
[20:42] 'Cuz you know, every time you send me an email
and I don't really like it, there's a higher chance
[20:46] I'm gonna not ever open it again, or I'll mark it as spam or unsubscribe.
[20:50] So, with a lot of our emails, like AppSumo emails...
And in AppSumo, email probably takes two to three
[20:54] days to write one email.
[20:56] And our business, it makes 90% of our revenue
through email, so it's very important.
[21:00] But for other businesses, spend more time writing it.
[21:04] And the second thing that's key is that
you need to have a consistent cadence.
[21:08] A lot of people forget this, they send an email
because it's like, oh yeah it's Thursday and
[21:13] I haven't sent not even one, let me send one.
[21:14] But it's like your favorite TV-show, you want customers looking forward to you.
[21:19] So you want, you know... for me, the way I do it and
everyone has to figure out what they think is reasonable
[21:25] For me, I think it's reasonable to send
to our customers every other week.
[21:29] So for KingSumo, for instance, every other week all we send is just what we're working on.
[21:35] Because I think, I don't know... If I'm a customer,
I just want to know what the hell's going on.
[21:39] Like, "Hey, what the hell you guys been doing for two weeks?"
[21:41] And they feel a part of a community, they feel a
part of the process and they can respond like,
[21:44] "Oh, that's cool... I know that sucks..."
[21:46] Versus, you know, six months later or a month
later: "Hey, here's a new feature and your shit,
[21:50] that's been going on," or random-ass email
"Go buy something," or "Here's a special!"
[21:54] So I would say, pick a time frame and then just put that on repeat.
[21:58] So, my personal same thing every two weeks,
Sumo.com, our email marketing software, that's
[22:03] every week, they send an email every Monday.
[22:06] New content, specifically content to help
small businesses, eCommerce pro.
[22:11] So an AppSumo was...
[22:12] Okay, great.
[22:13] Sorry.
[22:15] I like that you mentioned KingSumo, AppSumo
because we were kind of running out of time
[22:20] and they have my last question.
[22:21] What's the difference between building an audience
for the... yeah, your personal brand, because you have
[22:27] it on OKDork, you have your personal email list.
[22:30] And what's the difference between building an
audience around the business, like what are
[22:34] the tips there? Anything people should know?
[22:37] I think people like buying from people.
[22:42] That's one thing, you know...
[22:43] When we talk to people... and I don't ever really
tried to build a brand, I just like sharing things.
[22:48] I think if people try to build their brand so
hard, I think is when they don't do so well.
[22:51] I think what it is, is build your tools, build your software, and go help people with it.
[22:57] I think the thing they don't remember is put
a human voice behind it whether you trying
[23:01] to build your personal brand which...
[23:02] Actually, a lot of people that use Sumo
products have heard of me, right?
[23:06] So there is benefit.
[23:08] But even the Sumo products, and Sumo group are family of products, all of them use human talk.
[23:14] And I think with every business... like, when you
send an email it's always like, "Cheers, Ahrefs"
[23:18] but instead it should be "Tim and Ahrefs
crew" or whatever kind of...
[23:21] I think just put in more human, and how
people can think about it is that when you're
[23:24] writing emails, or content, or anything, think
about if it's as you're sending an email to a friend.
[23:29] You're not writing an email or you're not
writing a blog post for just random people.
[23:32] So you'd use the word "you" instead of "they,"
like you're talking to them, and I think that's
[23:38] overall not about personal brand but
just being human in your market.
[23:42] So basically, in the general scheme building
an audience around your business and around
[23:47] your personal brand is pretty much the same, they intersect a lot.
[23:52] Yeah, I think they should blend.
[23:54] Oh it's an interesting thing, right, but you only have so much time in the day.
[23:57] And I'm very fortunate, I work with great people that
run the two businesses so I have time to kind of do
[24:02] podcast or YouTube and things that I'm interested in.
[24:05] And then it lets me... because of that I can then mention that the businesses that we work on.
[24:09] I think if I was... if we were a lot smaller I probably wouldn't spend at any time on OKDork or that stuff.
[24:15] Except like you know, maybe 10% of my
time or just as a hobby.
[24:19] Okay, thanks a lot, this was amazing, a lot of great tips.
[24:24] Thanks a lot for agreeing to do this interview
and sharing so much knowledge with people.
[24:30] Thanks for it too, Tim.
[24:31] You're the man, thanks... Whatever Tim asks - I do.

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